Wednesday, March 7, 2012

Hate speech? Really?

One of my goals in life is to participate in a true political debate. Not a shouting match, but a true debate where both sides argue their points reasonably and, crucially, are open to the fact that they may be holding the wrong ideas and willing to change their beliefs. The Internet, allowing for an easy way to facilitate discussions across a very large, very diverse group of participants ought to have made this easier; alas, it seems that the past few years has only increased the vitriol and spitting bile in these shouting matches.

When I read news articles, sometimes I think "this sounds thought-provoking", and I turn to the online comments to see if it started one. Almost invariably, most of the comments turn out to be rants that are only distantly germane to the article (e.g., any article on the Middle East sets off a firestorm with ... well, you can guess; any article on Ron Paul sets off commenters screaming about how he's being "ignored" by the media, etc.). Sometimes, the ones I think are most thought-provoking have no comments (typically any article that mentions Africa). Go figure.

It is also surprising how many people you think ought to know better end up doing nothing but shouting. I went to a well-regarded selective-admissions public high school (the mean score for the standard college-admissions test in the US is not far from perfect) (and no, I did not get a perfect score on said test), but when we had a sponsored debate between the Democratic and Republican groups in our school, it still devolved into a (literal) shouting match.

Which brings me, in a roundabout manner, to the true topic of this post. Apparently, there is a firestorm currently brewing over a post on planet.mozilla.org that dealt with a political topic of current interest to some people. I discovered, years ago, that you catch a lot more flak if you write a post that goes to an aggregator that people disagree with than if you write one they agree with (I explained why I did not like the results of the 2008 presidential election, and caught more flak than the few posts earlier celebrating those results). I don't mind political discussion—indeed, as I described earlier, I'd love one. But I can understand why people might not like sensitive political topics being collected on a site which can be interpreted as official Mozilla policy.

However, there is one thing I don't like about it. Some people have taken it upon themselves to call the viewpoint presented as hate speech. I don't know what hate speech is exactly, but I don't think it should ever exist, no matter what one defines. That is because terming something as hate speech is an attempt to avoid discussing it: it is a way to say "that statement is so wrong I am not going to bother to refute it", or, equivalently, "I am so right that any opposition to my idea cannot be rationally argued." It is at best an insult to one's opponent and at worst an admission of outright arrogance.

Even worse, I think, are people who want to outlaw hate speech. Speech is, fundamentally, a reflection of one's belief. Attempting to outlaw the utterance of specific beliefs is nothing more than trying to outlaw those beliefs in the first place. Sure, some of them are injurious insults (such as those who deny that the Holocaust happened), but there is, to me, a steep slippery slope you start out on. Why outlaw denials of the Holocaust but not also outlaw denials of other historical religiously-motivated genocides? Hell, why stop there? We could outlaw any false statement: think how much more rational our discussions would be if people didn't state such lies as "Sharia law is invading the US legal system" or "the New Deal did nothing to bring us out of the Great Depression." Wait, maybe that's why.

I remember, when doing a project for a US Government class that involved redebating several key cases on freedom speech, that I found a Supreme Court decision which mentioned something to the effect of "Free speech is at its best when it causes discomfort" (I cannot find the exact quote right now, sadly enough). At that moment, I think, I solidified my stance on free speech to the following: all speech ought to be free, no matter how insulting, radical, or slanderous it may be. It may be that your speech causes injurious actions, but it's only the intent and the action that matters (e.g., falsely yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater is grounds for manslaughter, but because the action was intended to create a stampede, not because you actually said "Fire"). Attempting to censor others' opinions—whether through legal means, or through attempts to shame them by calling their words "hate speech"—is not an action I can support.

And if you disagree with me, feel free to try to discuss it with me. Who knows, I may just change my mind.

51 comments:

Jim B said...

Your thinking is muddled here. In the comments I read on said blog post, most were along the lines of, "Get this off the Mozilla feed." I didn't see anyone (or if there was, it was buried by all the other comments) saying Gerv couldn't have his opinion or that he couldn't say it, just that putting it on the Mozilla feed was inappropriate.

Further, nobody actually censored the blog post -- the simply commented on it.

I'm sure you are quoting someone who labeled it hate speech. One may agree or disagree with this label. But you yourself are calling for a ban on using that phrase, in effect. For someone who is fearless about hearing contrary opinions, why are you getting riled that someone would try and attach a label that you find offensive?

Michael Kaply said...

There are multiple places to follow this besides the comments on Gerv's blog, and the phrase hate speech and the idea of firing Gerv came up in those places.

http://blog.mozilla.com/planet/2012/03/06/concerns-with-planet-content/
http://soberbuildengineer.com/blog/2012/03/a-stroll-through-planet-mozilla-history/

Joshua Cranmer said...

The primary thing I'm responding to is this post (Hate speech is not free speech), although, as Michael Kaply pointed out, there are other people who are strongly objecting to his content, not to the fact that it was on Planet Mozilla.

As far what I'm saying, I'm just pointing out that "Hate speech", as that term is used, is nothing more than a crude attempt to dodge the discussion. I'd rather see discussion than see shouting matches, so it disappoints me to see that people--especially those who I think ought to know better--are resorting to such a crude methodology.

I certainly do want to hear contrary opinions, and I do try to. That doesn't mean I can't say they're wrong, as long as I can explain why I believe them to be wrong.

twobraids said...

The term "hate speech" is an overly dramatic label that has a lot of impact. However, I can see why someone would use the term as the original posting was clearly a threat and not just a "let's discuss this issue" request. Gerv’s posting recruited people to take political action against another set of people.

Would you feel threatened if there were a political movement that would result in the dissolution of your marriage or being forbidden to marry your partner of choice? Would you find this a threat to your family, knowing that, under the current political environment they could actually pull it off?

What would the reaction have been if the posting was not about gay marriage, but interracial marriage? If you were in an interracial marriage, would you be threatened enough to use the emotionally charged term “hate speech”?

In 2008, the California Supreme court accepted the premise that gays are a "suspect class" that experiences unlawful discrimination*. I believe that puts them in the same category as racial minorities. So return to the previous question, in legal terms, how are the two cases different?

I think that we can agree that declaring an Aryan disapproval of interracial marriage would have been inappropriate for a company owned Web site. I submit that soliciting for help in marginalizing gay people is just as inappropriate on a company owned Web site.

I’ve been with my partner for fourteen years. We cannot marry. He cannot get Social Security benefits if I were to die. Unlike married people, he has to pay taxes on the Mozilla health insurance that he gets. There’s a long list of things that most people take for granted that are out of our reach. Gerv’s posting was threatening to me. Seeing that posting on a Mozilla domain, suddenly made me feel unwelcome in the community and as an employee. On top of that, seeing all the defenses of Gerv’s rights to threaten me, I am alienated even more.

I think that’s why members of Mozilla’s queer community used the term “hate speech”.

* for discussion's sake, I'm ignoring the fact that Gerv’s posting was about Britain and not California.

Kaida said...

The issue at hand seems to me (as an outsider) to mostly be that Planet Mozilla is considered the public face of the Mozilla Project.

And Gerv, by posting to Planet Mozilla with a comment that is perceived by some as homophobic* makes Mozilla look like it is an intolerant place.

It appears that this is why many community members are upset, as they do not want their participation in the Mozilla Project and Planet Mozilla to be construed as support for Gerv's discriminatory views.

While I do strongly support free speech, the views Gerv expressed were disheartening and greatly saddened me.

I'm a recent college graduate and was considering getting involved with the Mozilla Community. Gerv's post (and the fallout, including the (somewhat implicit) defense of the position) has made me reconsider this, though.

I don't want to contribute to a project that considers me and many of my friends sinners and abominations (and don't really want to work on a project that considers any group such). I had thought Mozilla was not such a place, but now I am not so sure.

*Basically anyone gay or friends with anyone gay has the viewpoint that opposition to gay marriage stems from homophobia.

twobraids said...

@Kaida, the turmoil of the last 36 hours due to Gerv's posting is not representative of normal daily life at Mozilla. If you would like to have an inside perspective, please contact me at my middle name at mozilla.com. I'd be glad to discuss Mozilla it with you.

Joshua Cranmer said...

@K Lars Lohn:
I don't think complete dissolution of all gay marriages was what Gerv was aiming for. What he was supporting appears to me to merely be the oft-discussed compromise: give gay couples the same rights, legal facilities, etc. as straight couples but just don't call it marriage.

Gerv's opinions are not my own, nor are they yours. You may feel threatened by them, but I'm sure that Gerv did not intend them to be threatening. In contrast, you probably hold opinions and may have done calls to action that I may similarly feel are threatening to my lifestyle without you having intended them to be threatening me.

I believe people should be able to say what they believe, even if others may find them offensive. As I said earlier, free speech does its best work when it forces people to confront others who have radically different views.

@Kaida
Planet Mozilla is not, and never has been, an official word of Mozilla. It is merely an aggregation of the blogs of the entire community. I am continually puzzled by the number of people that think that all content hosted at *.mozilla.org is official company policy.

Anonymous said...

i don't think you should equate what happened to you with this issue.

your example was democrats vs republicans, this legitimate party vs that legitimate party (and i agree, your comment was as out of place on p.m.o as pro-obama comments).

his post was calling for action to vote for repressing some human rights for a group of people.

and that is intolerable!

i wouldn't call that hate speech, and he has the right to his opinions, but he shouldn't be allowed to use any part of the mozilla project as his soapbox.

Joshua Cranmer said...

Let me be blunt:

You may find it intolerable. Others may not find it intolerable. Why should your definition be used to condemn it and not the speaker's?

That is the gist of the entire post.

Anonymous said...

i thought that, as a society, we had an understanding that limiting human rights for a group, any group, is not only disallowed, but not even open for discussion.

i guess i was wrong..

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, you said "i thought that, as a society, we had an understanding that limiting human rights for a group, any group, is not only disallowed, but not even open for discussion."

According to Gerv (I'm no expert in UK law) the UK law already provides the same civil (and human) rights for same and opposite sex couples. One is called Civil Parnerships and the other is called Civil Marriage.

I disagree with Gerv's advocating that the two institutions continue to have different names, but if it's true that the civil rights are the same, then you're attributing content to Gerv that he did not post - and that does nothing to advance the dialog.

Stella Omega said...

telling me that what i am does not deserve equal rights and that I am not moral enough to deserve a happy partnership-- unlike heterosexuals--

That is hate speech. it's certainly hateful!

And yes, there are days when I would love to not have to discuss the issue for the bazllionth time. Just because it's new to you does not mean I haven't lived with it all of my life. To talk to someone-- I need to have an inkling that it will be worthwhile. Sometimes it's obvious that it's a waste of time.

Anonymous said...

You may find it intolerable. Others may not find it intolerable. Why should your definition be used to condemn it and not the speaker's?

people who get rocks thrown at them find that intolerable. The people who are not being hit by rocks are not hurt by those rocks.

Anonymous said...

"telling me that what i am does not deserve equal rights and that I am not moral enough to deserve a happy partnership-- unlike heterosexuals-- That is hate speech. it's certainly hateful!"

Stella, the only problem with your statement is that's not what Gerv's post said. Gerv's post (and follow-up comments) said "in the UK we have equality of civil rights for opposite sex and same sex couples. We have two different names for those institutions. If you support my position that two names is good, then go sign this petition."

That is a far cry from telling you that you do not deserve equal rights and do not deserve a happy partnership.

I can imagine how sensitivity to politics in the US where same sex couples are being denied civil rights might cause you to be acutely sensitive on this issue, but you do yourself and your cause a disservice when you fail to recognize what is actually being said and instead leap to conclusions and make unsupported assumptions and accusations as you have here.

I recommend you go back and read what Gerv wrote in his post and if you still believe that he was calling for anyone to be denied civil rights, that you come back here with actual quotes that you believe communicate that. I think you will have a difficult time doing that.

Robert Kaiser said...

100% agreed with you there, Joshua. Thanks for that statement.
I live in a country where denying the Holocaust is a capital law offense (because it happened right here, after all) and while I understand the reasons for it, I agree that it's fundamentally against free speech to have such a law.
And I respect that different people have different opinions, some of which may even hurt me. But they need to be allowed to express those as much as I need to be able to express myself.
And I'm happy that Planet Mozilla is about all the facets of the people in our community, and not just sterile work-related stuff.

Anonymous said...

all this "it's not limiting human rights, its same thing under different name" sounds a lot like "separate but equal".

colored get their own drinking fountain. it's fine, they have a human right to water..

Asa Dotzler said...

If you enjoy having planet that personalizes the people on the project and helps you learn more about them than the particular bits of code or whatever that they're working on, you should speak up because those who would have an editorial regime put in place are going to be vocal about it. Let your voice be heard. http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla.governance/browse_thread/thread/6abe8b6a24eb3102/952101e4dd0bd0c7

DGAIL said...

Accidental touches on smartphones can be frustrating, especially when they disrupt your user experience or unintentionally trigger actions. To address this issue, Apple has implemented Accidental Touch Protection features in its iPhones, providing users with a smoother and more enjoyable interaction with their devices. In this article, we will explore the purpose, benefits, and methods employed by Apple to mitigate accidental touches on iPhones.

maplepest said...

Local pest control in toronto | Call 416-520-8575 For Quote
In the bustling city of Toronto, our seasoned team excels in navigating the unique challenges posed by urban environments. We specialize in delivering swift and thorough pest control solutions to safeguard both residential and commercial properties, ensuring a pest-free living or working space.

Gps Tracking said...

Experience unparalleled performance with TrackoBit’s top-notch White-label GPS tracking software. Designed for businesses that require seamless integration, our platform delivers real-time tracking, customizable branding, and comprehensive analytics. Empower your fleet management or asset inspection needs with accuracy and reliability. Experience unmatched convenience and control while striving for productivity. Stay ahead of the competitive landscape with our solutions and unlock new paths to success. Advance your business with the best white label GPS tracking software.

janbir bhosale said...


In English, discussions can cover a wide range of topics, and they can be both casual and formal. Here are some common topics of discussion in English:

Current Events:

News and headlines
Political events
Social issues
Hobbies and Interests:

Movies and TV shows
Books and literature
Sports and activities
Travel:

Favorite destinations
Travel experiences
Cultural observations
Technology:

Gadgets and innovations
Internet trends
Social media
Education:

School and university experiences
Learning new skills
Educational systems
Work and Career:

Job experiences
Career aspirations
Industry trends

med pharmazone said...

Latisse UK is now a necessary part of my cosmetic regimen. Applying it is simple, and the outcomes are evident. Greetings from fluttery lashes!
Latisse uk

Salesforce Training said...

CETPA Infotech offers comprehensive Salesforce Training programs designed to equip individuals with the skills and knowledge needed to excel in the dynamic field of customer relationship management (CRM). Our courses cater to beginners and experienced professionals alike, providing a solid foundation in Salesforce administration, development, and customization.

Salesforce Training said...

CETPA Infotech offers comprehensive Salesforce Training programs designed to equip individuals with the skills needed to excel in the dynamic Salesforce ecosystem. With expert instructors and hands-on projects, our training ensures practical insights and proficiency in Salesforce technologies, empowering students to succeed in diverse Salesforce roles.

Salesforce Course said...

CETPA Infotech offers top-notch Salesforce Training, equipping participants with comprehensive skills in Salesforce administration, development, and integration. With expert-led sessions, hands-on projects, and industry-relevant curriculum, the training ensures proficiency in leveraging Salesforce's robust platform. Enroll in Salesforce Training at CETPA Infotech to enhance your career prospects and excel in the dynamic world of CRM.

Cyber Security Training said...

CETPA Infotech provides Cyber Security Training, equipping individuals with skills to counter modern cyber threats. Our expert-led courses cover ethical hacking, risk management, and more, offering hands-on experience for effective defense. Join us to master cybersecurity and protect digital environments confidently.

Software Testing Training said...

At CETPA Infotech, our Software Testing Training program stands as a cornerstone for aspiring professionals seeking expertise in software quality assurance. Led by seasoned industry experts, our comprehensive curriculum covers fundamental principles, advanced techniques, and practical applications of software testing. Participants delve into various testing methodologies, tools, and frameworks essential for ensuring product quality and reliability. Through hands-on projects, real-world simulations, and case studies, students gain invaluable experience in identifying bugs, analyzing test results, and implementing effective testing strategies. With a focus on industry standards and emerging trends, CETPA Infotech equips individuals with the skills and confidence to excel in the competitive landscape of software testing.

Sql Server Course said...

CETPA Infotech's SQL Server Course provides comprehensive training in database management using Microsoft SQL Server. Participants gain expertise in administration, development, and optimization, preparing them for career advancement. Join us to excel in database management and unlock new opportunities in the industry.

CETPA Infotech said...

Explore the world of JavaScript with CETPA Infotech's JavaScript Course. Our program provides comprehensive training to equip individuals with essential skills for web development. Through hands-on learning, participants gain proficiency in JavaScript, enhancing their career prospects. Enroll in our JavaScript Course today and unlock your potential in web development.

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech offers a comprehensive Software Testing Online Course covering manual, automation, and performance testing. Gain hands-on experience, learn industry best practices, and receive expert guidance. Ideal for beginners and professionals seeking to advance in software testing. Join now to excel in this dynamic field!

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech's Oracle Course offers comprehensive training in Oracle database technologies. With expert-led instruction, hands-on projects, and dedicated support, you'll master Oracle database management and advance your career. Unlock your potential with us!

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech's Software Testing Online Training equips individuals with essential skills for software quality assurance. Accessible from anywhere, our program accommodates all skill levels, providing expert instruction and hands-on projects. Join us to excel in this dynamic field.

CETPA Infotech said...

Enroll in CETPA Infotech's Selenium Course to master automated testing with Selenium WebDriver. Our comprehensive program covers all aspects of Selenium automation testing, ensuring you gain the skills needed to excel in the field. Join us today and unlock the full potential of Selenium Course with CETPA Infotech!

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech offers a comprehensive Ethical Hacking Online Course, providing essential skills and knowledge to excel in cybersecurity. Led by industry experts, it covers penetration testing, network security, cryptography, and more. With flexible learning options and hands-on projects, participants gain practical experience. Upon completion, receive a certification validating proficiency. Join CETPA Infotech to embark on a rewarding career as a certified ethical hacker.

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech offers a comprehensive Cyber Security Training program designed to equip individuals with essential skills in cybersecurity. Participants learn from industry experts, engage in hands-on exercises, and gain practical experience in identifying vulnerabilities and defending against cyber threats. With a focus on diverse skill levels and interests, our training ensures a solid foundation in cybersecurity principles, practices, and technologies. Join us to embark on a transformative journey into the dynamic field of cybersecurity.

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech offers a comprehensive Automation Testing Online Course designed to equip individuals with the skills and expertise needed to excel in software quality assurance. Our online course provides flexible learning options, allowing participants to access high-quality instruction from anywhere in the world. Through expert-led instruction, hands-on projects, and real-world simulations, participants delve into automation testing concepts, tools, and best practices. Whether you're a beginner or an experienced professional, our course caters to diverse skill levels and interests. Join CETPA Infotech's Automation Testing Online Course today and take your testing skills to new heights in the dynamic field of software quality assurance.

CETPA Infotech said...

At CETPA Infotech, our Networking Online CourseNetworking Online Course offers a convenient and comprehensive approach to mastering networking fundamentals. Led by industry experts, the program covers essential topics such as protocols, security, and troubleshooting techniques. With flexible online access and hands-on projects, participants gain practical experience while learning at their own pace. Upon completion, students receive a certificate, validating their expertise and enhancing their career prospects in the dynamic field of networking.

CETPA Infotech said...

At CETPA Infotech, our Selenium Online Course is meticulously crafted to equip participants with the skills and knowledge needed to excel in automated testing. With expert-led instruction, hands-on projects, and real-world simulations, participants delve into Selenium WebDriver, frameworks, and best practices. Whether you're a novice or experienced tester, our course caters to diverse skill levels, ensuring a holistic learning experience. Join us today to unlock your potential in the dynamic world of software testing and take your career to new heights with CETPA Infotech's Selenium Online Course.

CETPA Infotech said...

At CETPA Infotech, our Salesforce Course is designed to equip individuals with the essential skills and knowledge required to excel in Salesforce administration, development, and customization. With expert-led instruction and hands-on projects, participants delve into the intricacies of the Salesforce platform, learning how to leverage its features to streamline processes, boost productivity, and drive business success. Whether you're a beginner or an experienced professional, our comprehensive course caters to diverse skill levels and interests, ensuring that all participants gain valuable insights and practical experience. Join us at CETPA Infotech and unlock the full potential of Salesforce technology.

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech's Cyber Security Online CourseCyber Security Online Course provides comprehensive training to equip individuals with the skills and knowledge needed to navigate the complex realm of cybersecurity. Designed by industry experts, this course covers essential topics such as ethical hacking, network security, cryptography, and risk management. With hands-on training and practical exercises, participants gain valuable insights into the latest cybersecurity techniques and tools. Whether you're a beginner or an experienced professional, CETPA Infotech's course offers the expertise and resources necessary to enhance your cybersecurity prowess and stay ahead in today's digital landscape.

CETPA Infotech said...

CETPA Infotech offers a dynamic SQL Online Course designed to equip individuals with the essential skills needed to master Structured Query Language. With expert-led instruction and hands-on exercises, participants learn SQL fundamentals and advanced techniques, catering to all skill levels from beginners to professionals. Whether aspiring to start a career in database management or seeking to enhance existing skills, our course provides comprehensive knowledge and practical experience, ensuring proficiency in SQL. Join us to unlock your potential in database management with CETPA Infotech's industry-leading SQL Online Course.

Language Learning with US said...

CETPA Infotech Pvt Ltd is an Indian training and consulting company, specializing in technical education and services. Offering programs in software development, networking, embedded systems, and more, they provide training and consulting solutions to individuals and businesses. Visit their official website for the latest information.

Language Learning with US said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Language Learning with US said...

Salesforce Essentials: Practical Training Guide" is an invaluable resource for anyone looking to master Salesforce Training. This comprehensive guide takes you through the ins and outs of the platform, offering step-by-step instructions and real-world examples to help you understand and apply key concepts. Whether you're a beginner or an experienced user, you'll find everything you need to enhance your skills and maximize your productivity. From navigating the interface to creating custom reports and dashboards, this book covers it all. With "Salesforce Essentials," you'll be equipped to harness the full power of Salesforce and take your career to new heights.

Pharmaceutical contract manufacturing in India said...

Alencure Biotech is the leading pharmaceutical manufacturer in India, offering top-tier healthcare products and services to meet all your medical needs. With a commitment to quality and innovation, we strive to provide the best solutions for your health and wellness. Visit us now to experience the excellence of Alencure Biotech.

pcd pharma franchise list said...

Explore the top 20 PCD pharma franchise companies in India through our informative blog. Learn about the leading players in the industry and make an informed decision when choosing a franchise partner for your pharmaceutical business. Stay updated on the latest trends and developments in the PCD pharma sector by visiting our blog regularly.
Best PCD franchise pharma company

Tech to Review said...

Looking for a reliable 1337x proxy? Look no further! Our proxies offer seamless access to your favorite torrents. Stay connected and enjoy endless entertainment without restrictions. Try it now!

Marble Art Studio said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Marble Art Studio said...

Looking for the best Best Corian Temple Design? Explore elegant and modern options for a stunning marble mandir that enhances your spiritual space. At Marble Art Studio, we specialize in creating exquisite Corian temples that blend functionality with beauty, ensuring your prayers are offered in style. Transform your home with our unique designs today!

SDAD Technology said...

In today’s digital landscape, having a strong online presence is essential for any business looking to thrive. SDAD Technology, known as the Best SEO Company in Australia provides innovative solutions to boost your brand’s visibility and drive organic traffic to your website. With years of experience and a proven track record, SDAD Technology specializes in creating tailored SEO strategies that cater to the unique needs of Australian businesses.

What sets SDAD Technology apart is its commitment to staying ahead of industry trends and utilizing cutting-edge tools and techniques. Their team of SEO experts conducts thorough keyword research and market analysis to ensure your business ranks high in search engine results. From on-page optimization to building high-quality backlinks, SDAD Technology employs a comprehensive approach to enhance your online reputation.

Transparency and client satisfaction are at the core of SDAD Technology’s services. Regular performance reports and analytics keep clients informed about their progress and the tangible results being achieved. Whether you’re a small local business or a large corporation, SDAD Technology has the expertise to elevate your brand’s online presence.

Choose SDAD Technology and experience the benefits of partnering with the best SEO company in Australia, where innovation meets results.

Trade Flock said...

The top 10 richest person in india list showcases the incredible wealth and success of the country's leading business magnates. These individuals have amassed significant fortunes through diverse industries, reflecting India's dynamic economic landscape and entrepreneurial spirit.